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UPDATE: Prop shaft & more

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    Posted: September-13-2017 at 12:38am
Well after 2 evenings of working on it, I've finally gotten the prop shaft out so I could replace the strut bearings. As I had said earlier in a different post, one thing leads to another and before you know it there is a whole other list of stuff to be done. In my case, the "simple" task of pulling the shaft for the bearings opened up a whole other door that I wasn't real sure I wanted to go through. But the bearings appeared to be pretty bad and so before things cascaded I went ahead and pulled the trigger. While in the long run I'll be glad I did, what a can of worms I kicked over!   

First, both the safety collar and the engine coupler were completely frozen. Tried everything and virtually nothing worked. Consulted the forum search, google and friends. I even called a very helpful guy in the tech department @ DIM (skidim.com). No go. So last resort, I cut them both off:



( Guess I have a two piece collar now lol )

But here's the real question - although I already know the answer. After pulling the shaft and inspecting it, here is what I found:   
What do you guys think ... time for a new shaft?





And one final thing. A question really. All the research I've done on the subject, all the videos I've watched and such, and everyone talks about, replaces or sells the strut bearings in 2 pieces, about 2" long each.   So, what about this that I found after pulling the shaft and inspecting the strut:



Looks like a one-piece bearing to me.....

Thanks in advance for your input
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 4:59am
I bought my one piece 1" X 1 1/4" X 6" cutlas bearing from   deepblueyachtsupply
S/S shaft collar off of e-bay
And yes, you will need a new shaft and coupler (without using a mic on it, it appears to have excessive wear.)
Some on here may prefer a 2 piece cutlas but I put back in a 1 piece like I took out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 5:02am
Joe,
I'd say it's time for a new shaft and coupling. I don't think I've ever seen that much wear at the cutlass before. The PO must have been running in sandy shallows and or beaching the boat frequently. I recommend a double taper system and suggest going with General Propeller. I see you found the "check your alignment" thread where I reported Charlie's experience with the GP. Single piece cutlass bearings 4, 5 or 6 inches long are still available but the advantage of two piece is more shaft support due to the distance between them and no extra drag because the two piece still have the same surface area.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 6:45am
How much wear is too much wear?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 7:52am
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:

How much wear is too much wear?


I'm certainly no expert, here least of all. However, as a quick home test I spanned across the worn area of the shaft with a steel straight edge and used a feeler gauge to measure the gap.   I'd say no matter who you are one would have to agree that .o30" at it's widest is
too much.   BTW, the top of the shaft is nearly the same, with an excessive amount of wear similar to this below the collar into the stuffing box. My guess is that the PO - all of them by the looks of it - had never changed the packing and certainly had never changed the cutless bearing.

I've already ordered a new 2-piece collar that should be arriving today, and highly suspected I would need a new coupler by the condition of the existing but I was holding off on that till I knew if I needed a new shaft as well. And here I was worried about having a bent shaft and having to replace it.....   Funny thing is I've got an industrial shop table saw that I check things like this with (the table is large and perfectly flat) though it's not a mic, you can at least tell if something has a very slight wobble. The shaft seems to be nearly perfect, if it weren't for the wear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 8:06am
Bruce,
As a general rule of thumb,if you can feel any movement at the cutlass then there's too much wear.

Joe,
Don't count on the saw table being "perfectly" flat. It's platen ground which is one of the least precise methods of grinding. The table could easily be out .003 in the length of the shaft meaning you will not be able to detect the max runout of .003. Put the shaft in V blocks and use a dial indicator on it. But, you need a new shaft anyway!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 9:27am
Pete, I mean how much wear on the shaft? About everyone I've taken apart has some wear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 11:04am
Bruce,
.010" under nominal I'd say is time for a new shaft.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 1:05pm
Pete

What's the taper on the hub end of the General Propeller shafts?

Is it the same 3/4 of an inch per foot as the prop end only shorter?

Sounds like what Duane makes

Sounds like a Supra double tapered shaft from the 80's too. Ski Supreme too.

There's also a place called   Croix Gear and Machining making these shafts. I think they were the supplier to Supra back then

Croix Gear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 1:59pm
Ken,
I didn't get a chance to measure the actual taper before Charlie picked up the shaft to install in his Cuda. But, just looking at it, I'd say the taper is half the angle and twice as long as the ARE. Yes, it's real close to what Duane makes. It's interesting you mention Croix Gear. General purchases their rough couplings from them!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 2:01pm
Sorry to interject here, but I just got the old strut bearings out and figured I'd better check the new ones with the good sections of the old shaft before I pressed them in. To me they were a tad loose. I slipped it on from the coupler end as there is a good 12" to 14" before any of the worn areas and even though it didn't rattle around, it wasn't snug either - it would fall straight to the floor if I let it.   So how loose is too loose? I don't really want to do this again in a year.   I can't verify a part number as there isn't any numbers on them and the PO was the one that purchased them.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 2:05pm
Joe,
Can you do any measuring of the old shaft? Also it sounds like the new cutlass bearings aren't pressed into the strut yet. Pressing them in will collapse the OD/ID slightly.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:



Is it the same 3/4 of an inch per foot as the prop end only shorter?




At least the one they sold me was in fact 3/4 per foot - with a taper length of 1.775 inches in a 2.775 inch coupling length... originally designed by Marine Associates of Hudson WI - the parent company of Croix Gear...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 2:36pm
Pete, mic's from 1.0005 to 1.001 in several places throughout the shaft at the undamaged areas on multiple axes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:



Is it the same 3/4 of an inch per foot as the prop end only shorter?




At least the one they sold me was in fact 3/4 per foot - with a taper length of 1.775 inches in a 2.775 inch coupling length... originally designed by Marine Associates of Hudson WI - the parent company of Croix Gear...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 2:45pm
For the other Joe (from Kansas)

Follow the link for some strut bearing info

Pay particular attention to what Duane in Indy says

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:01pm
Thanks Ken and Pete - very helpful. I don't own an inside mic so just a guess, but I'd say these will actually be a bit on the snug side once installed based on the fit currently.

Pete - Just curious, I re-read the comments above as I breezed through them earlier and had not caught your comment about the GP shafts. When I was reasonably sure I would need a a new shaft earlier this week I did a forum search and I remember coming across several posts regarding ARE double taper shafts. If I'm not mistaken, several of the more experience folks on the forum have recommended them so this morning bright and early I ordered one from skidim.   Is there a reason these aren't the way to go now?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:

Pete, mic's from 1.0005 to 1.001 in several places throughout the shaft at the undamaged areas on multiple axes

Joe,
The play will be reduced when the bushings are pressed into the strut.
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Joe,
it sounds like the new cutlass bearings aren't pressed into the strut yet. Pressing them in will collapse the OD/ID slightly.

You are going with a new shaft correct?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:13pm
Just crawled out from under my boat with my feeler gages. I was able to get a .006 feeler between the shaft and the bushing ID. I have approx 50 hours on the one piece cutlas bearing With that small amount of clearance it is hard to detect any slop.

I am getting as bad as KenO, all this was done in the rain!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:19pm
Joe in Kansas (has a certain ring to it)

Plenty of people have had good luck with ARE

Here's some more good double taper reading in the link

link

I've had shafts from ARE and Croix Gear and not had problems with either.

They went together and came apart with about the same force
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Just crawled out from under my boat with my feeler gages. I was able to get a .006 feeler between the shaft and the bushing ID. I have approx 50 hours on the one piece cutlas bearing With that small amount of clearance it is hard to detect any slop.

I am getting as bad as KenO, all this was done in the rain!


So what's the problem, it's sorta almost pretty dry under the boat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:

Pete - Just curious,    Is there a reason these aren't the way to go now?


IMO double tapered is the ONLY way to go. Sure makes life easier later on. I recommend a new brass key and a new brass nut. And always a new S/S cotter key I even go to the extreme of using a new brass nylock nut that I mill slots into for the cotter key




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

but the advantage of two piece is more shaft support due to the distance between them and no extra drag because the two piece still have the same surface area.


Huh??? Ya lost me Pete

edit, btw the puller is a design that Pete shared with me. Really clever
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:46pm
Well this is all sounding very good then. I was hoping I wouldn't have to call the nice lady at DIM back and cancel my order lol.

Anyway, as I've got the day off and a few days before my shaft will arrive, I decided to perform Pete's shaft test, just for grins. Sure enough the shaft had a slight bend undetectable to the naked eye - from x.0095 to x.0140, just out of tolerance. Either way I would have needed a new one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

but the advantage of two piece is more shaft support due to the distance between them and no extra drag because the two piece still have the same surface area.


Huh??? Ya lost me Pete

Think of spreading the bearings farther apart as an even support for the shaft. Sort of like a center bearing support on a long truck drive shaft.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Just crawled out from under my boat with my feeler gages. I was able to get a .006 feeler between the shaft and the bushing ID.

.003 on each side or .006 on each side?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 4:39pm
003 on each side
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Just crawled out from under my boat with my feeler gages. I was able to get a .006 feeler between the shaft and the bushing ID. With that small amount of clearance it is hard to detect any slop.

With the .003 on each side, it sounds it's just where it should be. Yes, with the rubber bushing it would be hard to detect any slop by hand but, I always suggest if you can feel slop, then it's time to check the cutlass. Now, you know if the bushing was hard like a guide or drill bushing, the .003 would be easy to feel the slop!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2017 at 12:53am
UPDATE:

Finally had some time to spend on the alignment the last few days and through a lot of hair pulling, jammed knuckles and expletives I finally got it done this afternoon!   After seeing how far out of alignment the original was, I'm really not surprised the shaft was as toasted as it was. I measured only .004" difference from side to side, which was bad enough. But the top to bottom was a whopping .019" difference with the pinch at the bottom.

The rear port motor mount was frozen solid and I was never able to free it, but as luck had it that was the one mount that was OK to stay where it was. Raising the front of the engine proved to be quite a chore and a heck of a lot higher that I had thought it would be, over a 1/4"! I guess it makes sense though given the proximity of the coupler to the rear mounts. Anyway, I'm very happy to report the final alignment to be exact from side to side and what appears to be a .0005" or less variance from top to bottom. I'd call that close enough.

So what started as a simple strut bearing replacement ended up as a new shaft, new coupler, safety collar, new stuffing box with Gore-tex and of course the new bearing.   Here was a prime example of   B.O.A.T. .....   and I'm pretty sure my wife is going to remind me. Constantly.   But you know, it's worth it!!!



And the new prop to go with it ... can't wait to try it out ~!



Thanks to everyone for their help in this endeavor !
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