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80 SN 351W issues FINAL UPDATE

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 3:33am
Hard to tell in the video but are you sure the noise is not just the water backing up in the pipes and then burping out. My boats have all done that at idle but when the RPM is increased, say 2,000 RPM you hear the true exhaust noise since it is running fast enough to blow out the water.
You might verify your fire order. Check both 351 and 302.
A solid 600 RPM idle is hard to achieve unless your tune is pretty close to great but you won't really know till it is on the water and the prop is loaded at idle.
Seems to me there was a post here in the past 2 weeks with the fire order issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 6:12am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Hard to tell in the video but are you sure the noise is not just the water backing up in the pipes and then burping out. My boats have all done that at idle but when the RPM is increased, say 2,000 RPM you hear the true exhaust noise since it is running fast enough to blow out the water.
.

I have always had a richer sound at around 600-800 RPM this is new to me, it sounds weaker and there pinging is odd. But again I've checked compression multiple times and have scoped all the cylinders. I"ll do it again and check the plugs as well they should have enough time on them now to show something if a cylinder is not running.

Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


You might verify your fire order. Check both 351 and 302.
A solid 600 RPM idle is hard to achieve unless your tune is pretty close to great but you won't really know till it is on the water and the prop is loaded at idle.
Seems to me there was a post here in the past 2 weeks with the fire order issue.


I verified the firing order and checked everything when hooking it up. I will check again.

BTW the engine did smoothly accelerate the timing advance, it was only almost perfect.

Thanks again for all your great help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 8:24am
What would you guys think if I removed the valve covers (they need paint anyway) and took a look at the springs, and rocker arms. How much of a mess would I make if I started it with the covers off?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 11:15am
Oil can squirt up and out of the valve covers and make a mess of your carpet.
I have made card board backsplashes and run an engine for a short while with the covers off and caught most of the oil but you don't want oil on your carpets and it is hard not to get oil there if you try to run with no valve covers. There are companies that make clips that divert the oil spray back down. I have not tried them on a Ford but they work OK on a Chevy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 11:17am
Are you sure you are putting your timing light on cylinder 1?

Dist is not 180 degrees out?

Anything you can see under a valve cover should cause a noticeable change on a compression test - so that's where to start before getting Messy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 11:30am
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

Are you sure you are putting your timing light on cylinder 1?

Dist is not 180 degrees out?

Anything you can see under a valve cover should cause a noticeable change on a compression test - so that's where to start before getting Messy.



It is roughly in the same place it was before the issues started. If by cylinder one you menthe one that is marked #1 and is the first on on the left hand side looking aft, then yes.,

I took the valve covers off any way (they needed paint...) everything looks good. I will post video soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 11:38am
Originally posted by sailsail sailsail wrote:


It is roughly in the same place it was before the issues started. .


Roughly the same as when you started meaning you removed it - new where the rotor was - put it back in without turning the motor and the rotor was still in the same spot?

If you know your timing is right and you are on the compression stroke, and you have the right firing order, and you have compression in all 8... and it still aint running right - then you might want to clean out your carb.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 11:39am
Originally posted by sailsail sailsail wrote:

. If by cylinder one you menthe one that is marked #1 and is the first on on the left hand side looking aft, then yes.,

Confirming in other words, that should be #1 which is starboard side all the way forward. ??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 1:45pm
I think he needs to do what was mentioned earlier and confirm the firing order that the cam is not where the wires are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by gun-driver gun-driver wrote:

I think he needs to do what was mentioned earlier and confirm the firing order that the cam is not where the wires are.


I am going to follow through starting at #1 and the distributor and make sure the timing is right. Should be easy to follow the rotor and double check with the rockers...

I will go ahead and clean the carb out again,,,, might as well at this point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

Originally posted by sailsail sailsail wrote:


It is roughly in the same place it was before the issues started. .


Roughly the same as when you started meaning you removed it - new where the rotor was - put it back in without turning the motor and the rotor was still in the same spot?

If you know your timing is right and you are on the compression stroke, and you have the right firing order, and you have compression in all 8... and it still aint running right - then you might want to clean out your carb.



It went in right where it came out. After doing the timing it has moved a little. The timing was way off...

I feel stupid because the overheat (which may have never happened) coupled with that bad spark plug seems to have brought me down the wrong path, At least all the little things are getting fixed...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2017 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by sailsail sailsail wrote:

. If by cylinder one you menthe one that is marked #1 and is the first on on the left hand side looking aft, then yes.,

Confirming in other words, that should be #1 which is starboard side all the way forward. ??


Correct. Pilots forward right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2017 at 8:27pm
Ok everything is coming together.
New Autolite 25 plugs. What should I gap these to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2017 at 8:41pm
.035 inches

Everything's coming together but you're not gonna tell anybody how or why ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2017 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

.035 inches

Everything's coming together but you're not gonna tell anybody how or why ?


Thank you!

I will when I am at a computer and can post pictures and have a spellcheck that works.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2017 at 10:57am
Awaiting your update.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2017 at 4:45pm
UPDATE!!!

It was the....... distributor cap....

After removing the valve covers and following through with at least nine rotations of the engine I verified that the timing was correct! I took compression readings with an air compressor (the real aviation way) and everything worked except when I let go of the breaker bar and hit my knee. I then cleaned everything again and was confident that all the values were working, nothing was bent, everything was timed right etc. I even cleaned the carb out (although like an idiot I did not count the turns for the idle minute screws..... ugh)

Finally I decided to purchase a new distributor cap from west marine and she worked perfectly! I could not tell if there was any damage to my other cap (they look the same with no markings...) but I guess something was worn.,

Anyway now I have a great running boat! the damaged intake manifold gaskets were replaced (there was a leak!) and the leaking valve cover gaskets were also replaced and the valve covers repainted to a "Ford Blue" to keep you guys happy.

We went out yesterday for some tubing (FYI to the guy on this forum who hates tubes, When the wife says "I want to tube" my correct answer is "yes dear") and she ran perfectly. The only issues are at idle and that is due to my carb adjustments which I will address when I get a vacuum gauge hooked up.

Thanks again for everyones help here.
The damaged spark plug lead me down the wrong path but I'm glad I did anyway as it addressed some issues that could have turned into greater ones down the road.

EDIT:
I'll post pictures soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2017 at 5:51pm
It's great you got it running.
Now as far as the


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2017 at 7:21pm
"Don't you love it when a plan comes together?"
Wait ... OK, so it didn't really come together the way you'd planned. But as you said, this got you to address some things that need to be done and some things you didn't even know you needed to look at.   

Funny how that seems to always happen to those of us with, let's say 'seasoned' boats!   I'm actually exactly in the same (boat?) as you on things I'm dealing with ... one thing leads to another which shows you something else.    Well, life isn't boring for us!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2017 at 7:59pm
Good job figuring it out.

Seems like back on the second day of your thread somebody asked if it might be an ignition or carburetor problem unrelated to the "overheat". and at least a few people kept bringing up the ignition system/distributor as time went on. Just took a while to get there.

I guess now we know the answer

Also just ignore Pete the tube hater, Who would you rather keep happy, him or your wife?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2017 at 8:15pm
Glad you are on the water again. Enjoy it. I have always been a skier first. That is where my heart is but I have to say over the years I have had many fun hours playing with friends on Tubes, Wakeboards and kneeboards. Even a few times surfing and building pyramids behind our boat.   Did a 6 man a couple times. No professionals just yahoos having fun on the lake and river.
Used the same boat for all the above. The boat never complained about this stuff.
The boat does complain when the Damn big board boats with the 5 foot high waves and 3,000 pounds of ballast plus 10 people on board ruin the Ski Water for everyone within 2 miles of them. There should be Board only lakes and places.
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I'm glade it's all working.

My temp gauge appears to be broken. It has power, and the wire to the temp sensor is not shorted. Does anyone know a good replacement or just any will do?

Thanks again for everyone's help. I really went down the wrong path with that plug and assuming it was leaning out, The only thing I regret is not doing the head gaskets. With my luck they will go soon and I was already half way there to replacing them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sailsail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:53am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Glad you are on the water again. Enjoy it. I have always been a skier first. That is where my heart is but I have to say over the years I have had many fun hours playing with friends on Tubes, Wakeboards and kneeboards. Even a few times surfing and building pyramids behind our boat.   Did a 6 man a couple times. No professionals just yahoos having fun on the lake and river.
Used the same boat for all the above. The boat never complained about this stuff.
The boat does complain when the Damn big board boats with the 5 foot high waves and 3,000 pounds of ballast plus 10 people on board ruin the Ski Water for everyone within 2 miles of them. There should be Board only lakes and places.


Some lakes do ban wake producing devices (ballast, and drag inducing.) must be nice.

I used to live in the northeast and a lot of lakes are having higher than normal shore erosion which is being blamed on the wakeboard boats (and I agreee.).

I used to have property on Cheat Lake, WV and the wakeboard boats and large crownlines (why do you need a cabin cruiser on such a small lake...) would destroy the shoreline. A lot of people are paying big money to get seawalls installed to save their property. I bet in the future we will see more laws past to limit the size of boats and wakes on a lot more lakes. Hopefully it does not get out of control like some private lakes in Missouri where the HOAs banned engines over 10hp. Those are always fun to sail regattas at, you would see people with a $40,000 pontoon and a 9.9hp Honda...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 5:13am
Originally posted by sailsail sailsail wrote:

My temp gauge appears to be broken. It has power, and the wire to the temp sensor is not shorted. Does anyone know a good replacement or just any will do?

Have you checked the sender? Ohm it out between the sender terminal and the engine block to make sure there's continuity. The engine block is the ground source for the gauge. Also get some Ohm readings at various engine temperatures. You mention the sender wire isn't shorted but, is it open (infinity reading)?


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Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by sailsail sailsail wrote:

My temp gauge appears to be broken. It has power, and the wire to the temp sensor is not shorted. Does anyone know a good replacement or just any will do?

Have you checked the sender? Ohm it out between the sender terminal and the engine block to make sure there's continuity. The engine block is the ground source for the gauge. Also get some Ohm readings at various engine temperatures. You mention the sender wire isn't shorted but, is it open (infinity reading)?


Not short or open. I'll get a reading off of the sender today, will not be able to start it though. Is there a good auto part number for the sender? If it's cheap enough I'll just replace it.
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A quick test is to take the sender wire, and touch it/ground it directly to the engine with the ignition turned on, to send power to the gauge.

If it pegs the gauge, then likely the sender is the issue. If it doesn't move the gauge, then it is either the gauge or a break in the wire itself.

This is the sender if you need it:
https://www.nautiqueparts.com/product/water-temperature-sender-1-2-inch-npt-pcm-351-ford-except-gt40-which-uses-r020002-mounted-on-the-circulating-water-pump-r020003/
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Originally posted by Bri892001 Bri892001 wrote:

A quick test is to take the sender wire, and touch it/ground it directly to the engine with the ignition turned on, to send power to the gauge.

If it pegs the gauge, then likely the sender is the issue. If it doesn't move the gauge, then it is either the gauge or a break in the wire itself.

This is the sender if you need it:
https://www.nautiqueparts.com/product/water-temperature-sender-1-2-inch-npt-pcm-351-ford-except-gt40-which-uses-r020002-mounted-on-the-circulating-water-pump-r020003/


Well it is the sender. I must have damaged it when had the intake manifold off.

Thanks for the idea to check that!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by sailsail sailsail wrote:



Well it is the sender. I must have damaged it when had the intake manifold off.

Thanks for the idea to check that!


When you installed the sender, you didn't by chance use a thread sealant or Teflon tape did you? The block is the ground to the gauge circuit. Did you Ohm between the sender terminal and the block as suggested?


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